John Livesay Interview - the pitch whisperer
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So, what's your story? Too many salespeoples' approach is focused on features and benefits, my guest today helps organizations and sales people perfect their stories to connect with prospects and build lasting relationships. Tune in for a great conversation with John Livesey aka The Pitch Whisperer.
David Avrin: hey folks thanks and welcome to the customer experience advantage podcast we talk customer experience we talk business because I guess we experience everything as part of.
David Avrin: The transaction and the relationship and the interaction of course, how we interact has changed dramatically, and you know in so many ways we lost connection.
David Avrin: During coven or we found different ways to connect.
David Avrin: Right is john and I and i'll do formal introduction here in a second as we look at each other face to face and remind those who are listening on all of the audio platforms for this podcast.
David Avrin: We do have the video version as well, and you can see how attractive we both are.
David Avrin: on my website at David average comm slash podcast or podcasts I can't remember but look at the site and it's also on on YouTube as well.
David Avrin: But we found great ways to to connect and others are still being dragged kicking and screaming into into the new era, but I think it has made.
David Avrin: In a time when we didn't have the opportunity to connect in person or touch or feel or look at at products at trade shows or things like that how we talk about things, how we make a connection.
David Avrin: has even been brought to the forefront is even more important today we're going to talk about storytelling.
David Avrin: Not in terms of young children and holding a book in the front of the room.
David Avrin: But the real conversations that we have with real people and i'm all in on this, and so in john's one of the best.
David Avrin: he's the author of the new book the sale is in the tail i'll tell a bit more about him he's known as the pitch whisper sales keynote speaker shows companies sales teams.
David Avrin: How to turn mundane case studies into compelling case stories, so they win more new business from john's award winning career at Conde nast.
David Avrin: He shares the lessons he learned that turn sales teams into revenue rock stars his tedx talk is called be the lifeguard of your own life has over a million views and his brand new book the sale is in the tail is a business fable.
David Avrin: That about sales representatives who is old ways of selling are not working anymore, and the reader accompanies the REP on his journey and learns how to use storytelling to strengthen their soft skills and improve their professional relationships john thanks and welcome to the show.
John Livesay: David thanks for that warm introduction.
David Avrin: You know what it was incredibly well crafted most of it by you.
John Livesay: But.
David Avrin: But it's not the point is not the point that that the things we are we're doing aren't ad hoc it doesn't mean that they're scripted.
David Avrin: or overly rehearsed but but we put some thought into how we're going to communicate who you are what we do and why that's important tell me a little bit about the the genesis for for your mission to help promote storytelling.
John Livesay: well.
John Livesay: When you just said that reminds me of one of my favorite quotes which is by Arthur Ashe the famous tennis blow.
John Livesay: Who said, the key to success is confidence and the key to confidence is preparation.
John Livesay: And I think the more prepared, we are, the better we perform, and we see actors do it before they get on set or movie athletes do it, they don't wait for the crowd to show up and so many people say i'm just going to wing it i'll figure it out when I.
John Livesay: Get in front of someone and I thought, why do you do that nobody else who's a professional does that.
John Livesay: Sure, my own story was selling advertising, as you mentioned for Conde nast and I would call on clients like lexus and their ad agency would say you know we looked at 25 magazines we've narrowed it down.
John Livesay: To 10 to get to come in for 30 minutes each and pitch back to back to back and we're going to pick three and do not come in and talk about numbers we've already analyzed that and that's why you're in the finals.
John Livesay: And we want Oh, whoever tells the best story is the one that's going to get this ad campaign.
John Livesay: Sure, the marketing idea, whatever it is, and half the REPS were a deer in headlights David they were like I can't talk about circulation or the income of my readers I don't know what i'm going to say so that really.
John Livesay: allowed me with my advertising background to go Oh, I know what a story is I used to work for an agency, where we would take movies and Edit them down to come out on home video back in the day of blockbuster.
John Livesay: And that's really where I honed my storytelling skills was realizing if a movie hadn't done well theatrically you could edit it a different way and make people want to go rent or even buy it.
David Avrin: talk to us about the difference between the wrong story in the right story a bad story.
David Avrin: Good story, because I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about what that means, and people who dismiss it as soft and it's manipulative and.
David Avrin: there's a difference between a story that's that's slightly relevant and one that really makes a connection and it's not about about.
David Avrin: i'm gonna let you explain it because because i'm i'm all in on this, but attack was about the misunderstandings of what you mean, and when you confront it when you talk to clients and prospects as well, how do we do it wrong and how do we do it right.
John Livesay: Well, if we zoom out, we first have to become aware that people make decisions about who they're going to hire what they're going to buy emotionally and not logically.
John Livesay: That for half the people out there is a big Aha moment like what I just showed the numbers, this makes this product go 30% faster why it's so logical why aren't you buying it.
John Livesay: And I explained that we buy emotionally the right side of our brain we're storytelling and imagination and empathy and listening live so literally it's the soft skills that make us strong, not the opposite.
John Livesay: And what makes a good story is three things it's clear, concise and compelling, so why does it have to be clear, because if we confuse somebody.
John Livesay: The confused mind says no, and they don't tell you they're confused, why does it have to be concise, this is really one of the key secrets David.
John Livesay: For the meeting after the meeting because they're going to hear three different people pitch, and then they have a meeting after that I go well what you think they all sound the same, I guess, we should go for this.
John Livesay: less expensive, but if you've told a story that's concise enough for them to remember and repeat it.
John Livesay: you're going to be the one they remember and then compelling that's the emotional part when we target heartstrings people open purse strings so when you have your story is that checklist clear, concise compelling you know you're on the right path to telling a good story.
David Avrin: Right and but compelling also as another part of it, and I think it does fit within that last one, which is relevance.
David Avrin: Connected it's compelling because it means something to them, yes it's about them, they can see the connection if it's so far afield, that they have a hard time making that connection between the Okay, it was a great story, but I need to increase my sales.
David Avrin: Yes, how do we, how do we take.
David Avrin: Those stories and make them connected and relevant so that they recognize how it affects them.
John Livesay: Well, the first awareness is the same story is not going to work for everybody, just like the same pitch doesn't work for you need to customize it, so I tell people think of your brain like a playlist or a jukebox.
John Livesay: Instead of different songs coming out different stories come out because the ultimate goal is that you tell a story that somebody sees themselves in, and then they want to go on the journey with you.
David Avrin: hundred percent.
John Livesay: When a quick example.
David Avrin: yeah please.
John Livesay: I was working with a tech healthcare company and they had a product that made surgeries go 30% faster and they were confused why they weren't selling more.
John Livesay: And so we turn that statistic into the story imagine now happy Dr Higgins was down at long beach memorial.
John Livesay: When he could go out to the patient's family an hour earlier than expected.
John Livesay: Using this equipment and if you've ever waited for someone you love to come out of surgery, you know every minute feels like an hour.
John Livesay: And he came out put them out of their waiting misery and said, good news, the scope shows they're going to be fine.
John Livesay: turn to the REP and said, you know that's why I became a doctor for moments like this, now that REP tells that case story to another doctor at another hospital, who says, you know what that's why I became a doctor I want your equipment to.
John Livesay: The client said oh my gosh it gives us chills not only we not telling a story never occurred to us to make the patient's family a character in the story.
David Avrin: Absolutely.
John Livesay: And so there's all of the elements we just talked about it's clear it's concise the people see themselves in the story it's memorable tugs at the heartstrings and all of that shifts from 30% faster to a case story that makes a huge impact.
David Avrin: Right and i'm only in on this like I said I tell a lot of stories on stage when I speak as well, and what I learned early on, is is characters have have stories of characters they have dialogue.
David Avrin: They have emotion.
David Avrin: And they have heroes and heroes never you.
John Livesay: Exactly.
David Avrin: Right it's never you right and so even that story is you tell it and I think about it in terms of in talking to that other doctor and saying, and you know they're in there and they're agonizing and they're running to every scenario in their mind what could be going wrong.
David Avrin: yeah every minute that goes by deepens their anger and their anxiety and.
David Avrin: Right and then you give them that wonderful relief and then you walk in our early and you're able to route and, yes, that reaction.
David Avrin: and knowing what I love it, I mean a lot of people and there's others who talk about stories and and your book as well the brand new book out the sale is in the tail see how I give you a nice plug in that.
David Avrin: But it helps them understand that it's not about telling an irrelevant story or just me.
David Avrin: is telling stories that have to do with what they're doing or illustrate is one of the things that I did when I worked for a long time with them with a CEO Roundtable group I was a chair with vistage international.
David Avrin: And I would talk to prospects and I would say, tell a story about a CEO who was said he would he really felt it and he got the pressure and the reality of where he was he said it was the company picnic.
David Avrin: And I was like same more he says everything I see my employees and I see the work that we do and we're all up at two o'clock in the morning we're all stressing, he says, for the first time ever, I saw their families.
David Avrin: I saw their children and I didn't sleep that night and the pressure was crushing realizing that everything that I do.
David Avrin: affects them and these children and their families and their aspirations and that was crushing right and then draw a connection to the person i'm talking to and they're like welcome to my world.
David Avrin: Now they know through that tail through that story that I understand their circumstance.
David Avrin: I brought their pain to the surface and, of course, now we offer the solution to that pain so i'm all in on that, how do you teach others sales professionals organizations that you work with and speak for how to identify the right stories and how to to tell them in compelling ways.
John Livesay: Well, the good news is you don't have to be this gifted storyteller from birth it's not like you have this.
John Livesay: Born talent, to be an opera singer or an athlete's anyone can learn to become a storyteller and even elevating it up to where people can see themselves in the story with a structure, but once you understand that.
John Livesay: A story has a structure so it's The first part is the exposition you must paint the picture, who, what, where when, let us know where we are and then the second part is the problem, and as you were alluding to.
John Livesay: The better we describe the problem, the more people think we have their solution, and then you talk about, as you said, the relief what the solution is and the real secret David is the resolution what is life like after that has happened.
John Livesay: Imagine the wizard of Oz ended when Dorothy got in the balloon to go back to Kansas.
John Livesay: But no there's that wonderful resolution scene, where she realizes there's no place like home and.
John Livesay: You know so that's what the story needs so if we go back to the story, I told earlier, we know the name of the doctor, we know how long ago we know what hospital.
John Livesay: And we're in the story, then we know the problem is the patients families waiting and all that pain.
John Livesay: And I pull you in by saying if you've ever had to wait, you know how every minute feels like an hour, the solution is the doctor coming out and saying.
John Livesay: Good news and our earlier patients is going to be fine, but the real resolution that makes that story so compelling is the doctors dialogue to the REP, as you mentioned.
David Avrin: Right.
John Livesay: We don't know you know, this is why I became a doctor, so that.
John Livesay: Is that story broken down into those four steps that people go Oh, it was all there, it was fairly transparent, hopefully, without a lot of structure being obvious but, once you understand the structure it allows you to duplicate that.
David Avrin: yeah and I found a lot of times the best stories it's not you tell me what happened it's you telling it as it's happening.
John Livesay: Exactly press right.
David Avrin: So it's not saying to once a doctor when into a waiting room and here's what he said to them it's like we walks in he says.
David Avrin: Great news right and you're doing it with a kind of emotion and just talking like people talk the way I like to equate it is.
David Avrin: is for those who feel like they might be nervous doing something like this is imagine the conversation at thanksgiving.
David Avrin: Right it's authentic we're Reminiscing about step were laughing about stuff being done oh yeah but this oh God, this one right and we're animated with our hands and we're telling you like it's a story.
David Avrin: As opposed to a script is there is one of the things that makes me crazy and I apologize to my wonderful colleagues.
David Avrin: But their speech coaches and others out there who talked about being very deliberate don't wander around the stage pick a point move purposely, to the point, this is where you make the hand gesture and I like kill me.
David Avrin: How about you just be real just teach what you know in this one time, let me tell you about a thing, so my daughter like five years old she's like dad.
David Avrin: Right, as opposed to my daughter was very precocious and she had a way of just talk like it.
David Avrin: Right and those kinds of things, make you real and accessible, but they also feel like you really get it don't.
John Livesay: Yes, if you can make people feel like they're ease dropping in on the conversation by having the dialogue and present tense then it's fantastic and the beauty of a story is it allows you to show what your point is as opposed to telling it you want another example.
David Avrin: Please.
John Livesay: I was working with an architecture firm they were up for renovating an airport stakes are pretty high whoever won it was going to get a billion dollars.
John Livesay: Because that's what it costs to renovate an airport over five years and they had some wonderful before and after pictures of other work they've done but no story to go with the pictures, so we crafted this story imagine.
John Livesay: Six years ago at JFK we were working with Jet Blue in their terminal and during that project, we had to rip off all the tiles in the middle of the night from nine at night till nine in the morning.
John Livesay: And rewire everything so that the stores could open on time without losing money.
John Livesay: And we had all the vendors on call in case something went wrong and sure enough at two in the morning, a fuse blue.
John Livesay: We had somebody there in 20 minutes, they fixed it at an 859 the last tile went down all the stores opened on time and now a year after the complete renovation sales are up 15% in those stores because we've designed a place that pulls more people in and keep some shopping longer.
John Livesay: Oh, the old way of doing that David would have been to say we use critical thinking to anticipate problems, but instead we showed it by saying we had all the vendors on call because we anticipate every potential problem and.
David Avrin: If we need.
John Livesay: to fix it.
David Avrin: it's part of that is.
David Avrin: yeah great partners acknowledge it listen there's a lot of people can do this lot of talented people i'm a big believer in in never criticizing or belittling competitors compliment them to their overall good.
David Avrin: But here's what we do differently here's what we understand that they don't and being able to illustrate it that way, what do you think about those who.
David Avrin: In Simon cynics and brilliant and others talk about this about knowing your why and being really clear on your why I struggle that with a bit because I don't know that customers really care about your why but they really care about their why.
David Avrin: It has, knowing that you understand their why.
David Avrin: How give me examples of of company sales professionals and others who think they understand this, what do what some of the common mistakes and misunderstandings about story that derail a successful pitch.
John Livesay: I think the biggest mistake people make and telling a story is not having a structure to it, so it rambles and just goes on and on and on, and people are bored or they're not paying attention anymore, and they certainly can't remember it or repeat it.
John Livesay: And then you've just told the story, and if you make an the other big mistake, as you said, is making yourself the hero, instead of the client.
John Livesay: If you have any role in the story it's as the Sherpa you know, helping them climb mount.
John Livesay: Everest or yoda and Star Wars right.
John Livesay: That they, in order for them to see themselves in the story, you have to have a story that is just like them, whatever the role is, whatever the situation is and most people don't know how to do that, and so they just tell the story about themselves and.
John Livesay: And people go well, good for you, because here's the unspoken question everybody has when they hear you pitch or tell a story, will this work for me.
John Livesay: And if you haven't told a story where they see themselves in it, they might trust and, like you, but they still aren't going to buy until you've told a story that they see themselves in so the airport that was listening to that story about the renovation and Jet Blue they said oh.
John Livesay: They they know what they're doing.
John Livesay: But more importantly they're measuring sales being up after this so we're spending all this money and we're going to get some of it back by sales increasing at the retail stores.
John Livesay: which we really hadn't thought about as a potential source of revenue and so that made them go that's what those are the kinds of outcomes, we want and then that makes it much more compelling that they go that's who we want to work with.
David Avrin: What are the shortcuts that you see people because i'll tell you from my perspective.
David Avrin: there's some really lazy shortcuts which are telling some well known, tried and true standard stories.
David Avrin: and trying to sound knowledgeable whether they're telling the story of of fedex and how they got an F on their paper and college or God forbid.
David Avrin: they're telling the starfish story which makes all of us are risen to the table and well and made a difference to that one there's a difference between telling other people's stories and telling your stories talk about that for a second.
John Livesay: Sure, I think we pretty much.
John Livesay: know now that nobody needs to hear another story about Steve Jobs.
John Livesay: And how.
David Avrin: I think greed.
John Livesay: Right, I think I think we're done with that.
John Livesay: And unless you have somehow interacted with ilan musk I don't think that's even really relevant either.
David Avrin: or or, then you have the right to tell it.
John Livesay: yeah and.
David Avrin: that's the hallmark card version Okay, or something somebody else wrote and you're just recounting it for them, it might make a point but it doesn't really make a connection does it.
John Livesay: Exactly and that's what we want, we want that emotional connection.
John Livesay: Because, in order to get people to change their behavior they have to be moved, you have to break through the clutter with a story that's grabbing their attention and has some unexpected twists because of a story doesn't have conflict in it it's going to be forgettable.
John Livesay: Right, there has to be some journey that the hero not you the client is struggling with and they get your product your help in some way, shape or form to help them be more successful, on the other end.
David Avrin: There is um.
David Avrin: There was a process, I remember somebody saying it was one of those imagine a world where blank and blank and blank occurs right how might that look but but in terms of connecting the stories, I was just thinking here on a couple of different things that i'm.
David Avrin: heard a great line you put it this way, he said the opposite of talking isn't listening, the opposite talking is waiting to talk.
David Avrin: or so eager to tell the story that it may not be specifically connected, or if there's something that they get wrong they don't have at their disposal.
David Avrin: an alternate version or a different one How important is it that people have a roster of great stories and do the research on the front end to know the one that's going to be relevant to them.
John Livesay: it's like an athlete only having one play ready to you know whether it's basketball or football right, you need to have multiple.
John Livesay: tools in your toolbox and that's why I was referring to the stories being like a jukebox or a playlist you need to have multiple stories ready to go because.
John Livesay: If you don't and you just tell the same story it doesn't it's not the right story to make somebody respond to it, they go well, that doesn't that's nice for that person, but I don't see myself in that story so it's.
David Avrin: it's not How do people recognize that, because you and I both know.
David Avrin: of speakers sales professionals and others who have a story that in their mind this kills like this is my go to and it works, every time this store in there, so enamored.
David Avrin: With their own story, and it may get a good reaction, but there's rarely a story that's going to work with a healthcare professional or company, at the same time as a logistics company as a food and beverage right.
John Livesay: Right, I would say it goes back to again how much empathy you have for the person you're talking to.
John Livesay: What is their pain point what keeps them up at night, what is their struggle their overwhelming feeling.
John Livesay: And then go Oh, then, therefore, that sounds like the story I have on someone else who had similar feelings or worries or stresses and so that's probably the best story to tell to make them relate to it, but that does require that as we opened up with the preparation.
David Avrin: Absolutely.
David Avrin: it's like when it's not just preparation in terms of your own ability to tell the story and to make it relevant and use the characters and the voices.
David Avrin: But also preparation on your client and what their their needs and challenges are.
John Livesay: You know, you were talking about the opposite of talk and listening and all that stuff that's what makes great actors great actors is they're responding in the moment as if they're hearing that line for the first time on.
David Avrin: camera.
John Livesay: And sometimes that's where spontaneity can happen because they know what their line is going to be next, but if they're completely present.
John Livesay: there's sometimes magic can happen, and the same thing is true in a conversation or in front of an audience that you're so present with them, and you can relate to what just happened.
John Livesay: I was giving a talk, where the person who was introducing the CEO who is going to speak before it was my turn to speak got a bloody nose and had to be you know taken off stage and couldn't introduce the CEO well that's an elephant in the room, we have to address.
John Livesay: Right enough to pretend that that actually happened is kind of crazy, because then it seems very robotic I would do.
John Livesay: So I you know I talked about how the importance of resilience, especially in sales right how fast we get back up and I have a tool in the sale is in the tail that people are loving called the.
John Livesay: which you ask yourself, when you get to know or something embarrassing happens like your nose bleed will this matter in five minutes how about five hours, how about five days from now, and man most things don't matter five days from now, if it's a work related thing.
David Avrin: But that's one of the secrets in your tool kit that you can pull out because it fit in the moment here's where I think it works out really well is in Q amp a.
David Avrin: Some of the best when someone asks you a question about something she you know so listen to us working with a client, let me give you an example of that.
David Avrin: i'm working with a client right and you launch into something that's relevant yes to them, I do this on stage right, sometimes I have an hour i'm doing a keynote or something else.
David Avrin: There are ways of peppering your presentation with things that somebody might find relevant to ask you to come and work with their organization right right.
David Avrin: And so what I might do in a presentation is something ongoing so so i'm working with a Calvin.
David Avrin: company on California, I do some consulting as well, and I was spending a half day with them.
David Avrin: And here's what we did right, what did I just do now, I just told people I do half day things right and I give an example of something that might be relevant, but here's what it came out of that.
David Avrin: The brilliance that was in the room, blah blah blah blah blah but, at the beginning of that I just told him.
David Avrin: But, but in Q amp a that's where I found it really somebody has a question about something you can have a great answer, but if you give them an example of a scenario where that happened and here's how it was resolved.
David Avrin: you're also demonstrating your skills at solving that a case study where it actually happened but, as you said, when you have a tool kit.
David Avrin: When you have an arsenal of great stories and examples and it's hard for people who are 22 years old, you don't have a lot of life and business experience at this point.
David Avrin: there's no shortage of 1920 year old motivational speakers or life coaches like dude you haven't even had a life, you know you.
David Avrin: earned the right to do that kind of a thing, but.
David Avrin: Where have you found that valuable for you as you're working with clients to be able to pull examples and then maybe that's another great.
David Avrin: alternate terminology is example for story.
John Livesay: Well, a year ago I was hired by a recruitment firm and they have to sell companies on hiring them versus competitors, you know the big ones are like korn ferry.
David Avrin: you're absolutely.
John Livesay: like that, and they have to sell themselves on why they should find your next CEO CEO CFO whatever.
John Livesay: And during the Q amp a after the talk, they said, you know korn ferry is bigger than we are and they have more experience.
John Livesay: In certain practice areas of finding you know the next CEO of an entertainment company or whatever How should we handle that and I broke the fourth wall down and reminded them that I had to sell myself to their CEO.
John Livesay: And they went Oh, because they don't think about the.
David Avrin: reason why you're talking to me because I did this.
John Livesay: yeah so i'm not just giving you a good idea that may or may not work, I actually use this to get this.
David Avrin: love it.
John Livesay: And they went Oh, I said, you know, he said to me, have you spoken to a lot of other recruiting firms and, at the time I had not and I said.
John Livesay: Well, I haven't I have spoken to a lot of architecture firms who have a very similar business model.
John Livesay: The teams are broken up into practice areas this person knows how to run a in an airport this person knows how to build a law firm and you have people that specialize in finding people in different industries.
John Livesay: And I said, and they have a final three that they go in and pitch against competitors, just like you do, and he goes oh yeah and those situations we asked if we can go last.
John Livesay: Because we think that'll make us more memorable and I said yeah but you can't control that.
John Livesay: No, I said, you can control telling the best stories So even if your first and then he got he goes oh will be setting the bar you're hired.
John Livesay: Because I referenced another industry so similar so I said, even if you don't have the exact expertise in one industry tell an analogy, where they can transfer that expertise from one to the other so that's how I handle that in the Q amp a and they got a lot of value out of it as well.
David Avrin: love this talking to john livesey the author of the book the sale is in the tail.
David Avrin: If people want to get in touch with you and work with you and learn how to bring this into the organization and perfect their own storytelling how do they do that.
John Livesay: Well everything's on my website john livesey calm, if you can't remember that or the book title just Google the pitch whisper and all my content comes up.
John Livesay: And I have a free gift for everybody, if you take out your phone and text, the word pitch P, I tch 266866 you get the first chapter of my new book for free.
David Avrin: There you go and that'll be in the show notes as well, hang on to the other side we'll talk when we're off air big thanks to my guest john libba say i'll tell you can pick up a copy of my new book the morning huddle powerful covers.
David Avrin: Try this again the morning huddle and powerful customer experience conversations to wake you up and shake you up.
David Avrin: and win more business all of my books, of course, are available on Amazon for you watching the video version of this little strategically located here next to my head on the wall behind me.
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